Thread Rating:
I recently started playing craps and trying to have a consistent strategy. I have settled on playing the pass line with odds and placing 2 come bets with odds. When the come bet hits, place another come bet. If the point hits, place 2 more come bets. Any thoughts on this strategy. This is a nice insurance bet I use on the come out with a hot shooter. If I am on a hot table with guy throwing number after number I will have ALL the come bets numbers with odds by time he hits the point. A term commonly called having the 'House Built' come numbers 4,5,6,8,9, and 1. The bet is moved to its corresponding number square when Come Point is established. Come Point 8 Come bets payout 1:1 (even money). Once Come Point has been established (Come bet moves to the respective number), Come bet can be removed but it cannot be changed (increased/decreased).
odiousgambit
OK, yeah, but what happens to the HE when you hit the field then *take down* the hardway, and give it to me *per roll* like that. I think we are finally zeroing in on IMPORTANT Craps statistics!the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. .. Arnold Snyder
NowTheSerpent
OK, yeah, but what happens to the HE when you hit the field then *take down* the hardway, and give it to me *per roll* like that.
![Craps come bet payout Craps come bet payout](/uploads/1/3/5/6/135662599/629930208.jpg)
I don't understand what you mean exactly.
Any Hardway bet per roll has an EV = -2.7778% (-1/36), as does a Field bet with a triple-pay 12. So, if you take the Hardway bet down, the EV doesn't change; you just have the Field by itself.
odiousgambit
I don't understand what you mean exactly.
I'm poking fun at those who take the calculation of the HE of bet combinations - which seems to me to be heading in the direction of smoke and mirrors - and further mystify it by looking at a 'per roll' change - and further mystify it by looking at 'per roll if part of combination is taken down after other part wins'.
It may be true that I am just showing how dense I am. If so, further examples of bet combination HE isn't going to clear it up for me. A complete need to show how this isn't as muddled thinking as 'betting systems that win' bet combinations seems to exist.
You may have missed some of the threads.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. .. Arnold Snyder
NowTheSerpent
I'm poking fun at those who take the calculation of the HE of bet combinations - which seems to me to be heading in the direction of smoke and mirrors - and further mystify it by looking at a 'per roll' change - and further mystify it by looking at 'per roll if part of combination is taken down after other part wins'.
You may have missed some of the threads.
You may have missed some of the threads.
I probably have; I've been away for a while, but your point is well taken. I also think that the terms 'per bet resolved' and 'per decision' don't always make for a clear distinction from 'per roll', as one can speak of 'per roll losses per bet resolved' and think of multi-roll bets on box numbers or hardways against the seven being resolved 'per roll' as push 'decisions' whenever the box number (win) or seven (loss) doesn't roll.
Ahigh
I don't know how many times I have to say this, but I'll say it again. If you want to compare one bet to another bet, the 'per roll' is the only way to do it.
When the field pays triple (the ONLY time you should EVER bet the field if you do bet it at all) the edge is 2.78% per roll.
The same as the hardways here in America.
No difference.
I corrected the Wizard about his edge per roll on the hardways in his FAQ. I don't know if he has updated it.
Please don't be confused when it comes to comparisons of one bet to another. IMO, *ALWAYS* use the edge per roll AND DONE
If you were to count the number of threads where people argue about comparing one bet to another bet with a different number of rolls, it's a high number.
For the math inclined on this thread (especially those who are new to the forum) you have to realize that most people reading the craps forums are interested in learning the game, not debating the technical details of terms used to describe the ten billion combinatorial possibilities for bets you can come up with and what the edge per resolved bets are and/or whether or not 'pushes' count. To many of these readers, a 'push' is what you give when you leave the table.
When the field pays triple (the ONLY time you should EVER bet the field if you do bet it at all) the edge is 2.78% per roll.
The same as the hardways here in America.
No difference.
I corrected the Wizard about his edge per roll on the hardways in his FAQ. I don't know if he has updated it.
Please don't be confused when it comes to comparisons of one bet to another. IMO, *ALWAYS* use the edge per roll AND DONE
If you were to count the number of threads where people argue about comparing one bet to another bet with a different number of rolls, it's a high number.
For the math inclined on this thread (especially those who are new to the forum) you have to realize that most people reading the craps forums are interested in learning the game, not debating the technical details of terms used to describe the ten billion combinatorial possibilities for bets you can come up with and what the edge per resolved bets are and/or whether or not 'pushes' count. To many of these readers, a 'push' is what you give when you leave the table.
odiousgambit
If you want to compare one bet to another bet, the 'per roll' is the only way to do it.
Perhaps I take too many cues from the Wizard, but he does evidently think it is valid to look at HE per roll. I can see that it should be for players who constantly pick up their bets and make different bets.
Quote: Ahigh
If you were to count the number of threads where people argue about comparing one bet to another bet with a different number of rolls, it's a high number.
It can be valid or not, depending on the player; not everybody picks up bets. If you don't pick up bets, the rolls that don't affect your bet are like rolls that never happened.
In the context of bet combinations and HE, it seems to me that smoke and mirrors are around the corner; when bet per roll is thrown in when the OP did not have that, or vice-versa, I really get suspicious.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. .. Arnold Snyder
NowTheSerpent
Most people reading the craps forums are interested in learning the game, not debating the technical details of terms used to describe the ten billion combinatorial possibilities for bets you can come up with and what the edge per resolved bets are and/or whether or not 'pushes' count. To many of these readers, a 'push' is what you give when you leave the table.
Most people? The game is the numbers. And I never (and I repeat, never) invoke combinatorics when dealing with craps! Yahtzee, maybe, but never craps! And, of course, eight-card poker.
NowTheSerpent
not everybody picks up bets. If you don't pick up bets, the rolls that don't affect your bet are like rolls that never happened.
Right. I think of the Place-8 as an eleven-sided die, with five faces bearing an 8 and six faces bearing a 7. One throw, and done. Same math. I never take bets down per roll. It annoys dealers. But, when you combine multi-roll with one-roll, e.g. on the Iron Cross or Buffalo, the model changes somewhat. You need to think about 36 rolls at a time. For per-roll, box bets have to be 'resolved' somehow on every roll, to put them on equal ground with ORBs.
spadeknight
The reason why its better to leave them working is because a seven can roll on any throw including the come out roll. the seven isnt more probable on the come out roll just because its the come out roll. The seven can roll at any time. If the seven doesnt roll however and you hit a number you get paid the full amount of your odds bet instead of just the flat bets which always work when going through the come. some may say...' you can lose all your bets on one roll if you turn them on'. yea but you can lose them all in one roll on the next throw as well. since the odds are free bets with no house edge you will be giving up a bet with no edge in exchange for one with a house edge of 1.41 instead.
Sonny44
The reason why its better to leave them working is because a seven can roll on any throw including the come out roll. the seven isnt more probable on the come out roll just because its the come out roll. The seven can roll at any time. If the seven doesnt roll however and you hit a number you get paid the full amount of your odds bet instead of just the flat bets which always work when going through the come. some may say...' you can lose all your bets on one roll if you turn them on'. yea but you can lose them all in one roll on the next throw as well. since the odds are free bets with no house edge you will be giving up a bet with no edge in exchange for one with a house edge of 1.41 instead.
There is something mystical/mysterious about the come out. For example, it seems to me that I see more 7s in succession on the come out than any other time. Well, and in many cases the 11, and craps numbers. When I'm only a few $$ above going broke, I'll be damned if I don't see more craps numbers successively than any other time. Probably just a matter of perception. But, there's a lot of things about craps that defy the math.
- Page 4 of 13
This post is necessary for the Real Craps Game video that will come this Thursday.
A few people have asked about more high stakes videos. Well, this Thursday, I will be posting a high stakes craps game that involves put bets. At first, I was going to do another high stakes video involving pass line+odds or come+odds. When it comes to high stakes bets, I refuse to give up too much advantage to the house. The problem with the RoadGambler method of play is that I’ve already done it three times on video; it was time for something new.
At the same time, as few people on various Facebook groups were asking about put bets. That’s where I hatched the idea of a put bet video.
It is time to put out another high stakes game while also answering the question of, ‘what is a put bet?’
For the very short and simple explanation, skip to the very end.
WHAT IS A PUT BET?
A put bet is simply a pass + odds or come + odds combination where the player gives up the advantage of the come out roll. That’s all there is to it.
Here is a pic from the upcoming game. This is $5250 worth of put bets. Like I said, it’s going to be a high stakes game with yours truly playing it out for your entertainment.
For reference, the pass line or come bet portion of the bet is known as the ‘flat’ because it pays even money.
Here is a close up that breaks up and shows the flat and odds part of the bet…
With standard pass+odds and come+odds betting, the player has a 2 – 1 advantage on the flat bet on the come out roll. On a put bet, the player gives up this advantage.
Reasons why Players May Prefer Put Bets
Players typically prefer put bets (over pass+odds or come+odds) for the same reason players prefer place bets.
Some players hate to see numbers rolled and not be paid.
Also, with a put bet, the player can select which number to bet and ‘put’ that number. Gambling in st louis mo. Players who believe in ‘trends’ value the ability to select the number as a great advantage.
With a come bet, the player does not select the number; rather the dice selects the number.
WHEN TO USE PUT BETS OVER PLACE BETS
The following is the break even point for a put bet and place for each point is as follows.
- Point of 6 or 8, 5x odds
- Point of 5 or 9, 4x odds
- Point of 4 and 10…
- —If the commission is paid after the win, the player needs 19x
- —If the commission is paid before the win, the the player needs only 6x odds
![Craps Come Bet Payout Craps Come Bet Payout](/uploads/1/3/5/6/135662599/970382673.png)
(source: Wizard of Odds)
Note that the above is only true if the player has his or her odds working 100% of the time. If the player does not work the odds 100% of the time, the multiplier is higher.
Here is what I mean by the ‘break even point’…
On a place bet of 6 or 8, a $30 win on either number pays $35
On a put bet of 6 or 8, a $30 win on either number also pays $35.
Both bets pay exactly the same amount.
On a put bet of 6 or 8, the $30 bet is broken down into $5+$25. In such a bet, the flat pays $5 and the odds pay $30, for a total of $35. Remember that for this break even point to be true, the odds must work 100% of the time.
Example of Why a Put Bet Can be Better than a Place Bet
Let’s say the point is 6.
- —win will pay $70
- Put bet of $60, which is broken into $5 + $55 (11x odds)
- —the payout on a win will be $5 on the flat and $66 on the odds, for a total of $71
So on the same bet, the player wins an extra $1 for the same win-loss conditions as a place bet.
Let’s use a higher multiplier than 11x. Let’s assume the player is a high roller and plays on a 100x max odds table.
- —a win will pay $700
- put bet of $600, which is broken into $10 + $590 (59x odds)
- —the payout on a win will be $10 on the flat and $708 on the odds, for a total of $718
So on the same $600 bet, the player wins an extra $18 for the same win-loss conditions as a place bet.
Let’s do another example with another point.
Point of 5
- —win will pay $140
- put bet of $100, which is broken into $10 + $90 (9x odds)
- —the payout on a win will be be $10 on the flat and $135 on the odds, for a total of $145
So on the same $100 bet, the player wins an extra $5 for the same win-loss conditions as a place bet.
Let’s use a higher multiplier for the same point of 5. Let’s assume the player is a high roller and plays on a 100x max odds table.
Point is 5
- —win will pay $700
- put bet for $500, which is broken into $10 + 490 (49x odds)
- —the payout on a win will be $10 on the flat and $735 on the odds, for a total payout of $745
So on the same $500 bet, the player wins an extra $45 for the same win-loss conditions as a place bet. This means the player receives an extra $45 for doing nothing more than ‘knowing’.
This is another reason why 100x tables are so powerful. Many players argue that 100x odds games have no inherent advantage because, in the end, the 100x bettor and the $5 low roller will have the same, realized loss. But a 100x max odds table allows for players to ‘put’ higher odds, which results in winning extra money for doing nothing more than having knowledge.
New casino resort in nassau bahamas oceanfront. Why It’s Important to Know the Break Even Multiplier
If you go below the break even multiplier, you are better off placing the number.
The following is an example of why…
Craps Come Bet Payout
Point is 5
- —win will pay $42
Craps Come Bet Odds Payout
- put bet for $30, which is broken into $10 + $20 (2x odds)
- —the payout on a win will be $10 on the flat and $30 on the odds, for a total payout of $40
So on the same $30 bet, the player loses $2 on the put bet because the multiplier was not high enough. That’s why it’s important to know the break even multiplier.
If you are in doubt, then go with this imperfect rule across the board: your odds must be at least 5x in the points of 5, 6, 8, and 9 and do not put the 4 and 10. It’s not a perfect rule, but it will prevent you from losing too much.
HOW TO MAKE A PUT BET
To play the put bet, tender your chips in the same way you would tender your chips for a place bet and say that you want to put the number.
The result of you saying ‘put’ is that the position and stacking of your chips should look like a come bet.
You can put multiple points. If you put multiple points, it would avoid confusion (and is polite to the dealer) to cut out your individual puts first. For example, if you’re placing 6 and 8, you can just tender $120 in one stack.
But if you put 6 and 8 for $50 each, cut your chips into two $50 stacks.
WARNING: if your bet is positioned and stacked like a place bet, then it’s a place bet. You will be shorted on the payout if you do not verify that it is a put and not a place bet. Just for reference, here is what your put bet positioning should look like…
To make sure, ask your friendly dealer, is that a ‘put bet or a place bet?’ I generally do not like yes or no questions in this case because the casino environment can be loud.
DOWNSIDE TO THE PUT BET
There are three major downsides to the put bet.
The first downside is that sometimes dealers are not familiar with put bets, and here can be confusion about what to do. You will see an example of this a couple of times in the put bet videos.
The second downside is that many casinos, where it would be advantageous to use put bets, do not allow put bets. That’s really the main problem with put bets. They’re hard to find.
The third problem is that put betting requires a rather stout bankroll to play for any period of time. Players on a limited bankroll – such as $100 – are not going to be able to use put bets, unless they want to have a very short stacked bankroll.
Addendum:
Reader Henry S. asked two great questions about the put bet that requires me to add this downside, especially if you’re the type of player who likes to move his or her place bet around.
The put bet is treated exactly like a pass+odds and come+odds combo. The player can call off or take down the odds portion of the bet, but the flat is a contract bet.
Similarly, if the player wishes to move their put bet number to another number, the player must pay for the flat portion of the new number. The ‘old’ number would then have a name flat bet with no odds, and the player would play it out as it it had no odds.
Craps Don't Come Odds Payout
Without spoiling too much of what is to come in the videos, you will see this in action in Part 2. It will become very clear.
ROADGAMBLER THOUGHTS ON THE PUT BET
I prefer pass and come bets to the put bet.
Mathematically, pass and come + odds are still a better play. For the players who absolutely insist on the place bet, if the casino allows put bets, and the player is playing high enough of a multiplier, there is little reason to not use the put bet.
TL;DR
Put bets are simply the pass+odds or come+odds combination bet where the player foregoes the come out roll. The bet is paid exactly like how a pass+odds or come+odds would be paid.
Craps Come Bet Payouts
The casino has the advantage on the flat bet portion of the put bet, but on the odds portion of the put bet, there is no house edge.
That’s it!
If you’re still confused, you will be able to watch actual putt bets in action this coming Thursday.
In the meantime, if you have any questions or comments, feel free to drop them in the comment section below.
Posted in: Craps, Gambling